Expanding the park

[Daved Thomson]

Wow... You seem to think that gauging customers for things as ludicrous as parking and lockers is a good thing. Short term profitability (which, again, they don't point to any financials that support their claim), allowing every ounce of goodwill associated with the brand to disappear and desperately targeting a consumer base only foolish enough to patronize you is a great way to to build business. Oh, yeah, and then lease or sell the rights to solar energy panels because you are having a tough time with the cost of doing business in the industry in which you were once the leader.

 

And, no matter how many times you repeat that Zumanjaro, El Diablo, and Skyscreamer are rides that are targeted at someone other than teenagers or will draw other than teenagers, they will not. El Diablo, is not a coaster and no matter how many times it is called one will that make it one. Unless, of course, you are of the mind that black is white, white is black, and gray doesn't exist.

[29yrswithaGApass]

^We can always count on your positive uplifting remarks. Maybe we should level the park, salt the land, and start over. The sky isn't falling and if you visit the park you may actually have a good time.

[Daved Thomson]

Harry, I'm sorry that I'm not of the mindset that "everything is fine" and don't pretend that what is not happening is. I also don't think I'm being negative about my perceptions and opinions about the park and company. I am being straight forward and, perhaps, bluntly so. But, while you may think I hope to see this park fail sometime soon, that is the farthest thing from my mind. And it has nothing to do with whether I would enjoy the park or not. This place will always hold a very special place in my heart and because of that, really want to see it around for a long time to come. That being said, I am always going to point to facts that fly in the face of actions that simply don't support them. They're not meant to be positive or negatively perceived. They are meant to be understood.

[Password121]

I'm having a tough time even reading through this forum these days.

 

We have different opinions, and that is fine. Nobody is saying that everything at Great Adventure or Six Flags as a company is perfect--they're fighting back from issues, and everybody agrees on that.

I'd really appreciate going back to just "agreeing to disagree," as Harry mentioned,

[29yrswithaGApass]

Daved, for the record I have never said "everything is fine". I have often given my opinion and suggestions on what does not sit right with me at the park. Feel free to search eight years of posts if you would like. I am sure other members don't care to hear constant negaitvity even if it is meant as valid concerns on your part or bickering between members. I will make this suggestion again, just as I did with the previous rounds of debate - instead of telling us what is wrong with the park and how awful things are, provide constructive suggestions on what should be done. Feel free to start you own topic, maybe Daved's Steps to Success or something.

[BigMak]

I will say that the park needs more family rides. I have a three year old. In a few years, the kid section will be too small for him. My wife is not a ride person. At that point, we would not be able to enjoy a day together.

 

Maybe going to Disney spoiled us. But we saw rides that could be enjoyed together for years. I know this park is nothing like Disney and never will be. But I feel this area has little to no attention paid to it.

[robertleax]

I love Rollercoasters.., my kids (15 and 17 now) love rollercoasters... My wife does not. She stopped going to the park as much as she used to. Down to twice in 2013 (processing pass and Fright Fest to see the shows), once last year (to process pass) and not yet this year (since I was able to process it for her). Now myself and the kids have also visited Great Adventure less in recent years.

 

Coasters are GREAT!!! Even Zumanjaro and Skyscreamer were a big plus for us. But now even my kids are getting a little bored with the park. Mainly due to a lack of shows. I think that is the biggest drawback GADV has (or lack there of). I have to compare GADV to other parks but when other parks (including Dutch Wonderland) has more shows for the family than us, we just tend to get bored and leave after a few hours.

 

We can spend all day at Busch Gardens without getting bored and they only have 6 (now 7) coasters but with so many shows and interactive rides my family (especially my wife) thinks its so much more enjoyable.

 

And it is not just that park GBW), it is a lot of others also that seems to draw more of a diverse crowd. Even SFA has shows for the family (EFX, Stunt show) and the water park is in the park which makes it easier for my wife to sit by the pool and relax while the rest of us ride the coasters, then meet back up to her to watch a show together as a family.

 

Don't get me wrong,.. We go to GADV to ride coasters (well at least my kids and I), but even my kids at 1pm say they are bored and want to go home. When they had even just the Dolphin show, we usually would relax for some time after lunch, watch the show (usually at 3pm) and then feel revived and would stay longer at the park.

 

Don't get me wrong... Holiday In The Park is a step forward (hopefully and that's the main reason why my wife kept her membership) and SORA is nice (I preferred the drive-through instead since that opened at 9am and did not overlap with our coaster time) but I honestly believe for the park to expand they need more shows 1st more than anything else (granted I would love another coaster).

 

Bring the Stunt shows back and the dolphin and high dive shows back (oh wait...can't do those now).

 

 

 

.

[29yrswithaGApass]

Shows are what I miss the most too. It use to be nice to just sit and relax especially indoors at the Showcase Theatre back in the day. I think shows are the primary draw for guests during Fright Fest (and most likely Holiday in the Park too). A stronger show lineup the rest of the year would be a major plus.

[Railer]

I really miss Adventure Theater, and the old Laser Show in Showcase. Although now they would both be "outdated". But your right, something to sort of give you a break for 40min to an hr other than a "kids show" to cool off and relax for a bit.

[Daved Thomson]

Wow... Seems like these last few posts are exactly what I have been talking about regarding balance in the park. Interesting.

[Nitro1118]

Wow... Seems like these last few posts are exactly what I have been talking about regarding balance in the park. Interesting.

They are talking about missing the shows...no one dismissed this. What we were saying is the park has made improvements elsewhere to improve the balance. A flat ride for thrill seekers (Zumanjaro), a flat ride for aspiring thrill seekers (El Diablo)a family flat ride with a thrilling twist (Skyscreamer), Adventure Alley classic flats, indoor coaster for tweener riders, long-overdue HH additions, and a terrific redo of the Safari.

 

As every single person has said, the park still lacks in certain areas, but it is impossible to deny they definitely have patched up certain areas of need. The frustration comes with you dismissing these facts and only focusing on the negative, all the while using that nonsensical "white is white and black is black" argument to discredit anything we say.

[Railer]

^ Exactly. I think the Park is better shape now than it's been in year's. I am really starting to have alot of faith in Fitzgerald and the team calling the shot's now. The only "debacle" since this team has been running thing's was Media Day for "Zumanjaro". Alot of the need's of the Park have been addressed, and they seem to be continuing to address them. I'm looking forward to see "Collins Key" in Showcase on June 7th, and there is alot of event's coming up in the Stunt Arena also. With where the price of Passes are compared to other chain's, i am perfectly fine with the "level" of everything in the Park. Six Flags Great Adventure matches the times that we live in today just as it should, and is reflective of the society we live in today.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Railer

[Daved Thomson]

^ Exactly. I think the Park is better shape now than it's been in year's. I am really starting to have alot of faith in Fitzgerald and the team calling the shot's now. The only "debacle" since this team has been running thing's was Media Day for "Zumanjaro". Alot of the need's of the Park have been addressed, and they seem to be continuing to address them. I'm looking forward to see "Collins Key" in Showcase on June 7th, and there is alot of event's coming up in the Stunt Arena also. With where the price of Passes are compared to other chain's, i am perfectly fine with the "level" of everything in the Park. Six Flags Great Adventure matches the times that we live in today just as it should, and is reflective of the society we live in today.

I'm not even going to offer a response here because it's clear that this group doesn't want to hear it. Those with such open minds are really very closed to anything that flies in the face of their beliefs, despite the facts put before them. Enjoy.

[gencx]

I don't know, but reading through this thread, it seems the only person that is "closed to anything that flies in the face of their beliefs, despite the facts put before them." is you.

[Daved Thomson]

I don't know, but reading through this thread, it seems the only person that is "closed to anything that flies in the face of their beliefs, despite the facts put before them." is you.

I think your ignorance, speaks for itself.

[pashacar]

Phew, glad to be joining this party.

 

I've got to come in largely in support of Daved's points, but I'd add some balance from the "other side" of the disagreement.

 

For me, the crux of what Daved is saying is around the model of customer interaction that the park is pursuing these days. Theme parks are an interesting case that sit at the intersection of two models here.

 

On one hand, there's the model of a nice hotel. You are attracted to it because it is a pleasant place to spend time, and you pay a set fee to spend time there. That fee includes a lot: a room, access to the grounds, pools and recreation, activities, etc. Extras like drinks or exercise classes may cost more, but they're enhancements to your experience that don't diminish the experience for the guests who do not purchase them. Obviously you can pay for a larger room, but that doesn't diminish the quality or size of the other rooms, and otherwise the things included are the same.

 

On the other hand, there's the model of a sports stadium. You are drawn in to buy a ticket and visit to see and support a team. Once you're there, the relationship is adversarial in nature: You put up with crowds, cramped seats, dirty bathrooms, and more because you want to see and support your team. You can pay to cut the line to get in, which visibly makes the line longer for everyone else. In the same vein, you are gouged with parking fees, concession prices, and more. You endure this because the attraction of watching the game is enough to overcome those negatives.

 

Six Flags, these days, is firmly in the latter model. They build big towering rides to draw you in, and assume guests will put up with high fees, wild concession prices, poorly trained staff, and poorly controlled crowds because the desire to ride certain rides overcomes those negatives. It's the model that Premier used as well. Shapiro made some moves along the "nice hotel" lines, I would argue, but mostly advanced this strategy, too. Ultimately, this strategy creates an adversarial relationship with the guest that forces them to spend money against their will, rather than creating a harmonious relationship that makes them want to spend. If you disagree with this, look at parking prices (including Preferred), mandatory lockers, the $8.99 online transaction fee, and artificially inflated wait-time signs that advertise Flash Pass. It's not hard to see.

 

I'm not saying this is the wrong model for a regional theme park in 2015 -- it may be the only way that one can survive. But it's not hard to yearn for some common-sense steps that would move the park in the direction of the "nice hotel" model. Think of how Universal makes mandatory ride lockers free for an hour or two. Or how Paramount Parks had area-appropriate music playing in each themed section. How Disney has a free ride-reservation system. How Cedar Fair offers shows and even streetmosphere. All of these would hurt short-term profits, but it's not hard to see how they could help them in the long run.

 

All told, nobody who follows the park can credibly say that the park hasn't made a lot of small, smart changes in recent years -- both revenue-generating and not. But just as many moves, if not more, have used that sports-stadium model and in turn have perpetuated a hostile, unpleasant relationship with the guest, and ultimately a considerably less pleasant, less seamless experience. The real question is whether there's a balance between the two models that can keep the park profitable while keeping enthusiasts and the GP happier.

[Nitro1118]

Pashacar,

 

Great post! I agree with just about everything. My argument against Daved centered around the fact that besides the obvious needs for improvement, the park has also taken steps in recent years to fill holes and be more well-rounded. The other thing was using context when discussing the park's past and current attendance, as well as how they've made profit elsewhere besides admission to make up for some of the dropoff.

[Daved Thomson]

Phew, glad to be joining this party.

 

I've got to come in largely in support of Daved's points, but I'd add some balance from the "other side" of the disagreement.

 

For me, the crux of what Daved is saying is around the model of customer interaction that the park is pursuing these days. Theme parks are an interesting case that sit at the intersection of two models here.

 

On one hand, there's the model of a nice hotel. You are attracted to it because it is a pleasant place to spend time, and you pay a set fee to spend time there. That fee includes a lot: a room, access to the grounds, pools and recreation, activities, etc. Extras like drinks or exercise classes may cost more, but they're enhancements to your experience that don't diminish the experience for the guests who do not purchase them. Obviously you can pay for a larger room, but that doesn't diminish the quality or size of the other rooms, and otherwise the things included are the same.

 

On the other hand, there's the model of a sports stadium. You are drawn in to buy a ticket and visit to see and support a team. Once you're there, the relationship is adversarial in nature: You put up with crowds, cramped seats, dirty bathrooms, and more because you want to see and support your team. You can pay to cut the line to get in, which visibly makes the line longer for everyone else. In the same vein, you are gouged with parking fees, concession prices, and more. You endure this because the attraction of watching the game is enough to overcome those negatives.

 

Six Flags, these days, is firmly in the latter model. They build big towering rides to draw you in, and assume guests will put up with high fees, wild concession prices, poorly trained staff, and poorly controlled crowds because the desire to ride certain rides overcomes those negatives. It's the model that Premier used as well. Shapiro made some moves along the "nice hotel" lines, I would argue, but mostly advanced this strategy, too. Ultimately, this strategy creates an adversarial relationship with the guest that forces them to spend money against their will, rather than creating a harmonious relationship that makes them want to spend. If you disagree with this, look at parking prices (including Preferred), mandatory lockers, the $8.99 online transaction fee, and artificially inflated wait-time signs that advertise Flash Pass. It's not hard to see.

 

I'm not saying this is the wrong model for a regional theme park in 2015 -- it may be the only way that one can survive. But it's not hard to yearn for some common-sense steps that would move the park in the direction of the "nice hotel" model. Think of how Universal makes mandatory ride lockers free for an hour or two. Or how Paramount Parks had area-appropriate music playing in each themed section. How Disney has a free ride-reservation system. How Cedar Fair offers shows and even streetmosphere. All of these would hurt short-term profits, but it's not hard to see how they could help them in the long run.

 

All told, nobody who follows the park can credibly say that the park hasn't made a lot of small, smart changes in recent years -- both revenue-generating and not. But just as many moves, if not more, have used that sports-stadium model and in turn have perpetuated a hostile, unpleasant relationship with the guest, and ultimately a considerably less pleasant, less seamless experience. The real question is whether there's a balance between the two models that can keep the park profitable while keeping enthusiasts and the GP happier.

I'm right with you here and everything you have said. The only thing that I would add is that theme parks, which Great Adventure claims to be, have always sought to maximize the guest experience, ensuring it is harmonious and not adversarial. Unfortunately, it seems to me, that is no longer the case.

[Daved Thomson]

Pashacar,

 

Great post! I agree with just about everything. My argument against Daved centered around the fact that besides the obvious needs for improvement, the park has also taken steps in recent years to fill holes and be more well-rounded. The other thing was using context when discussing the park's past and current attendance, as well as how they've made profit elsewhere besides admission to make up for some of the dropoff.

There is no such thing as making profit in one area while not making profit in another. Of course, any business has profit centers and loss centers. At the end of the season, the park either made a profit or produced a loss. That final number is the only number that counts.

[Nitro1118]

There is no such thing as making profit in one area while not making profit in another. Of course, any business has profit centers and loss centers. At the end of the season, the park either made a profit or produced a loss. That final number is the only number that counts.

Yes, there is. If the park has doubled parking charges, increased food/drink and merchandising prices, as well as selling thousands of flash passes every season that can cost double of the park's admission from 10-20 years ago...they can certainly make up big time for the dropoff in past attendance.

 

But yes, the final number is all that matters. That is exactly what SF is catering to. Whether they are going about it the right way is up for debate, but they have found ways to make a lot more off the people who do show up.

[Enchanted]

I have to agree that the company does not understand how to run a theme park, and the idea of a "thrill park" is doomed to failure. Thrill-seekers alone cannot sustain a park the size of Great Adventure, and everyone else is turned off by the obnoxious atmosphere. I went to the park for the first time this year a couple of weeks ago. As you approach the front gate you are blasted in the face by loud music. Whose idea was this?! They wonder why the park guests at GA are so rowdy and obnoxious when they make them that way. Theme park BGM ( background music ) should be just that, background music, not blaring loud pop music. To make matters worse one of the only sections in the park that could easily have appropriately themed music, Frontier Adventures, instead plays pop country music. "She thinks my tractor's sexy" is not a song that was sung on the frontier. It is not "Nashville Adventures" it's "Frontier Adventures". Something so simple and they don't understand it.

 

Adding only thrill rides to the park makes the problem progressively worse every year. Skyscreamer, Zumanjaro, and El Diablo are not family flat rides, they are thrill rides. They appeal to the same limited demographic as roller coasters. Meanwhile the theatres sit dormant leaving nothing for adults to do in the park, except the safari which doesn't fill an entire day.

 

In addition to the empty theatres there are dozens of other empty buildings littering the park, some with boarded up windows. It looks like downtown Detroit, not a theme park. The carousel looks like something picked out of the garbage. Everything needs painting.

 

There are major problems facing the park and throwing in more thrill rides is not going to solve them. Bragging about the fact that GA is 19th in north America in attendance is crazy. It is the largest park in North America in the most densely populated area of the country. It should be #1. 19th is pathetic.

[gencx]

Bragging about the fact that GA is 19th in north America in attendance is crazy. It is the largest park in North America in the most densely populated area of the country. It should be #1. 19th is pathetic.

It wasn't meant as a brag. It was merely a statement of fact. And for a park of Great Adventure's stature, 19th isn't pathetic. Do you know what #20 was? Busch Gardens Williamsburg, which is regarded as one of the nicest parks in the world.

[KK456]

Enough of this argument. The last few pages have been ridiculous. Can we just (as 29yrs nicely put it) agree to disagree?

[Daved Thomson]

It wasn't meant as a brag. It was merely a statement of fact. And for a park of Great Adventure's stature, 19th isn't pathetic. Do you know what #20 was? Busch Gardens Williamsburg, which is regarded as one of the nicest parks in the world.

ummm... you're not helping yourself with some of your facts. Do you realize that Busch Gardens Williamsburg is in a market about 1/10 the size of Great Adventure's market? You might also want to look into the word stature.

[gencx]

I'm not trying to argue, nor trying to "help myself". I took offense to that poster's notion that my post about the statistics was "bragging", because it clearly wasn't. This debate is foolish at this point.